========================================================================= INFO-ATARI16 Digest Wed, 6 Dec 89 Volume 89 : Issue 760 Today's Topics: A few random thoughts Atari image in USA / Europe Form Doc's (2 msgs) FORM docs again Optical ST Mouse ST CLub Meeting place Still searching... STOS Basic User Group Meeting Places WANTED : FORM parts 16,17 Xformer II (or whatever) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 6 Dec 89 07:24:05 GMT From: fox!portal!cup.portal.com!Bob_BobR_Retelle@apple.com Subject: A few random thoughts Message-ID: <24748@cup.portal.com> Andrew Semple says: > covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) spews, >> You know Ken, that is ONE reason why I refuse to buy the new TT. If you ca >> even upgrade a Mega ST2 to 4 megs because of some manufacturing decision t >> save 10 cents by using a MMU chip that can't address 4 megs, then what doe >> that tell me about Atari?? It is INSANE to sell a Mega ST2 that is cripple >> so that it can't be upgraded to 4 megs. That is another example of Atari's >> No Upgrade Policy. Why do you folks do that?? > The above statement about the ST2 not being able to be expanded to 4 Megs >is absolute CRAP. I know of about 20 ST2's that have been expanded to 4 Meg Yes indeed.. .that _used_ to be true... you could unsolder several hundred tiny holes and install sockets for RAM to take an ST2 up to 4 Megs.. But... you apparently haven't seen a recent ST2 motherboard... Atari Corp has redesigned the ST2 motherboard _without_ the RAM locations for the second bank of chips, making it impossible to upgrade the memory. You tell me... why would they spend the money on a redesign and retooling of the motherboard, not to mention the added expense of having to maintain 2 separate inventories of PC boards where they used to be able to use the same one in both Mega ST models..? Your statement about having seen ST2s upgraded to 4 Megs gives us a clue.. Atari Corp didn't get a cent from those upgrades... The "official" Atari upgrade policy is: Get rid of your Mega ST2 and buy an ST4 from us. BobR (Those who feel this message is a "Flame" or "Atari Bashing" are cordially invited to mail me your observations on why any of the above is incorrect) ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 89 16:09:47 GMT From: swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!uakari.primate.wisc.edu!caesar.cs.montana.edu !blake!gwangung@ucsd.edu (Just another theatre geek...) Subject: Atari image in USA / Europe Message-ID: <4781@blake.acs.washington.edu> In article <"89-12-05-19:03:23.56*UI0T"@DKAUNI2.BITNET> UI0T@DKAUNI2.BITNET ("Thomas Koenig") writes: >It never ceases to amaze me what kind of image Atari computers >have in Europe as opposed to in America. Indeed. A recent article in FORBES compared Commodore to Atari and characterized Commodore as a struggling non-MS DOS company while Atari was a "computer game" company. And that the Amiga was second only to MS-DOS machines in Europe........ -- Roger Tang, Member Uncle Bonsai Memorial Fan Club American Flag Disposal Unit #3245, Chonk Moonhunters chapter gwangung@blake.acs.washington.edu ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 89 15:19:57 GMT From: cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!force!covertr@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard E. Covert) Subject: Form Doc's Message-ID: <4743e81c.14a1f@force.UUCP> In article <2400@hudson.acc.virginia.edu>, gl8f@bessel.acc.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) writes: > In article <473eecf4.14a1f@force.UUCP> covertr@force.UUCP (Richard E. Covert) writes: > > >Hey, it doesn't seem like many folks like the TeX docs to form. > > Yes, if only some of them said it politely, then they could get them > in another form. However, if all we have is a doc in TeX, how else do > you propose to distribute them? > > >Must be some form of Elitest mentatlity to post docs to a program > >in a format that 99% of the people don't use. > > Jos did you a FAVOR by translating these docs, and all you do is throw > shit at him? How about "THANKS, JOS!!" for translating them in the first > place? > > >Oh well, it could have been done in nroff, which at least most UN*X > >people have access to. > > If you have Unix, you can get TeX for free. If you have an ST, you can > get TeX for free. If you ASKED, probably someone would gladly print > you a copy of the FORM docs. If you throw shit on them, however, they ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > might not want to do it... > > ------ > Greg Lindahl Geez, Greg do you have a problem with me, personally, or what? I wasn't really complaining, at least not as vocally as others. But you flame me and no one else. What gives with you?? As far as Saying Thanks to a poster, just how often do you think that that happens?? Not often from what I see on this newsgroup. So, I don't think that you will see many thanks for a post that for most folks here in the USA could have been written in German or Latin for as much good as it does us. Agreed it may have fancy math symbols, but still the ASCII TeX file could have been posted instead of the binary .dvi file. Then at least we, those w/o TeX, could have looked at some of the material. So quite flaming me, huh buddy? . . . . . . . . -- Richard E. Covert (covertr@gtephx) (602) - 581-4652 | AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ | UUCP: ?ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att?!gtephx!covertr ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 89 17:18:35 GMT From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!samsung!shadooby!sharkey!math.lsa.umich.edu!hyc@tut.c is.ohio-state.edu (Howard Chu) Subject: Form Doc's Message-ID: <10157@stag.math.lsa.umich.edu> For folks who don't want to deal with it, there's a program dvitty that was posted to mod.sources (yeah, a long time ago) that will print DVI files on a dumb terminal. Somewhat ugly output, but it's usable. This was written for Unix, so it'll take a little work to get running. If there's any interest, lemme know. -- -=- PrayerMail: Send 100Mbits to holyghost@father.son[127.0.0.1] and You Too can have a Personal Electronic Relationship with God! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 Dec 89 13:41:30 SET From: VBRANDT%DBNUAMA1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU Subject: FORM docs again Hello all, I can't believe the clamor that's been going on here about the form docs. Here is a nice person who sends around a sophisticated scientific application package IN THE PUBLIC DOMAIN. He then proceeds to include a professionally typeset documentation in freely reproducable form (ie. you can print as many copies as you want). He then gets flamed for (1) using TeX, (2) not using "inclusive language", and (3) using a paper size that's standardized in Europe and a few dozen other countries, but not in the Good Ole Redneck USA. Did anyone say, "Thanks for sending this around, but I can't make use of the docs, so please help me, I have this-and-that printer"? No! I'm not flaming any individual here, although I'm itching to do so. (Right, Richard?) I'm sure if someone politely asked Jos, he'd be able to put together a list of needed fonts together with instructions on how to get printer drivers for .DVI files. I advise him to ignore all other postings. There, I feel better already. ;-) Maybe now I can find some time to look at the program. Many thanks to Jos Vermaseren to share his work with us. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bitnet: VBRANDT@DBNUAMA1 (will go away some day ...) Volker A. Brandt UNM409@DBNRHRZ1 (alternative) Angewandte Mathematik UUCP: ...!unido!DBNUAMA1.bitnet!vbrandt (Bonn, West Germany) ARPAnet: VBRANDT%DBNUAMA1.BITNET@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 89 14:11:54 GMT From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!rpi!image.soe.clarkson.edu!daemon@tut.cis.ohio-state. edu Subject: Optical ST Mouse Message-ID: <8912061412.AA01003@skilving.uio.no> Has anyone heard of an optical mouse that can be used with the ST. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- arneso@ifi.uio.no - Arne Sommer "Powder to the People" ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 89 15:29:18 GMT From: cs.utexas.edu!asuvax!hrc!force!covertr@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu (Richard E. Covert) Subject: ST CLub Meeting place Message-ID: <4743f079.14a1f@force.UUCP> Well, I called the City of Phoenix and asked about meeting places. I was told to contact various Library Branches as they have conference rooms for rent. There are about 4 Phoenix Branch Libraries that are within the area that we want to hold our ST Club Meetings. All four will rent us a room large enough to hold 60 people for $5.00 for an entire morning or afternoon. I am going to present the idea of holding meetings in our next meeting, and try to get a vote on it in the Jan meeting. Looks good. -- Richard E. Covert (covertr@gtephx) (602) - 581-4652 | AG Communications Systems, Phoenix AZ | UUCP: ?ncar!noao!asuvax | uunet!zardoz!hrc | att?!gtephx!covertr ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 89 05:07:16 GMT From: zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!usc!cs.utexas.edu!natinst!rpp386!mark@tut.cis.ohio-st ate.edu (Mark Lehmann) Subject: Still searching... Message-ID: <17408@rpp386.cactus.org> >I seriously doubt that the _majority_ of people who buy Atari >computers, or any other computers for that matter, have the slightest >desire to program their machines. The simple fact is, most people who >buy computers want to _use_ their computers. They don't want to be >bothered with "programming" the things. Where a computer company >will lose is if there is no software available for the computers. It >is important to make sure that professional programmers know how to >program the computers, not end users. Ken, Not to dispute your argument about the reason most people buy their Atari ST's (to use pre-written code), but I bought my ST in my senior year of high school to learn how to program. I came from a back ground of an Epson QX-10 using CP/M and I basically had to write any software that I wanted to use (uncluding a word processor, network printer server, music composer programs - all in CP/M using a variety of high level languages: C and Pascal). When I first got my Atari, I was greatly disappointed at the availability of software (mainly due to my location) also in the general desgin of the ST (I have a 1040ST and the keys are a little akward and the 9 pin ports are in a stange spot.) My point is, for home users like me (maybe 10%) the thrill in having the computer is programming to solve problems, and have a lot of fun in doing it. And, in my programming of this machine that I have low expectations of, I have really learned to like it allot. In fact, since I had low expecatations, the ST has done nothing but impress my since I bought it. Maybe this is just my view point, but I bet there are allot of other people out their that also have allot of fun just programming their ST to solve problems or solve mathematical puzzles, and sometimes that means knowing how to interface with the operating system. Maybe Atari could offer a smaller public version of operating system technical references for people like me. (This is not a complaint, I like my ST and Atari.) Sorry for making this sooooo long. Mark Lehmann bigtex!rpp386.cactus.org!mark -- +------------------------------------+-----------------------------------+ | Mark Lehmann | | | mark@rpp386.cactus.org | | | ?bigtex|texbell?!rpp386!mark | | ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 89 16:42:33 GMT From: brunix!iris.brown.edu!mjv@uunet.uu.net (Marshall Vale) Subject: STOS Basic Message-ID: <22309@brunix.UUCP> In article <1862@atari.UUCP> kbad@atari.UUCP (Ken Badertscher) writes: > | In article larserio@IFI.UIO.NO (LarsErikOsterud) writes: > | >One of my friend has STOS and TOS 1.2 but we tried it on my MEGA4 with > | >TOS 1.4 - It worked OK, BUT you can't move the mouse-pointer !!!!! > > | Applications generated with STOS seem to exhibit this same behavior. > > This is because STOS used absolute, undocumented memory locations for > mouse position. More's the pity, because a legal way of getting at > these variables _is_ documented. A couple of other software packages > exhibited this behaviour in Rainbow TOS testing here at Atari, as well. > > I believe Antic has a new version of STOS that works better with Rainbow TOS. I just received a catalog from some place in California which sold PD and commercial software. On one of their PD disks was a patch for STOS running on TOS 1.4. If you are interested, mail me and I'll e-mail the address and info back. Enjoy. -- mjv@iris.brown.edu "And, oh! Father Christmas, if you love me at all, Bring me a big, red india-rubber ball." A.A. Milne "Now We are Six" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 Dec 89 11:35:15 EST From: Stephen Harold Goldstein Subject: User Group Meeting Places Message-ID: <8912061635.AA00899@NARNIA.SAIC.COM> (Richard Covert asked about user group meeting places). Our local chapter of the NOVATARI user's group meets in a public library. Have you tried that route? On another note, I'd like to compliment you on the more constructive comments in your recent posts. Keep at it, you and BobR are getting better. BTW - the TT/p does NOT need to be expandable - I see it being offered as an unexpandable but cheaper alternative to the TT/x. But of course neither is yet available, so we'll have to wait (and wait and wait :-) ) and see. --- Stephen Goldstein steveg@saic.com My first Atari system? A 24K Atari 800, Rev. A ROMS, C(not G)TIA graphics Disclaimer: That's not what I said. ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 89 17:25:18 GMT From: mips!prls!gert@apple.com (Gert Slavenburg) Subject: WANTED : FORM parts 16,17 Message-ID: <28937@prls.UUCP> Could some kind soul(s) please mail me the parts 16 and 17 of FORM, they did not arrive at our site ! Thanks in advance, Gert Slavenburg UUCP : ..!pyramid!prls!gert ------------------------------ Date: 6 Dec 89 17:03:25 GMT From: microsoft!w-darekm@uunet.uu.net (Darek Mihocka) Subject: Xformer II (or whatever) Message-ID: <9337@microsoft.UUCP> In article <7264@cs.utexas.edu> psurge@cs.utexas.edu (Troy Carpenter) writes: >I have a few questions about Xformer: > > 1. What is the current version > 2. What systems does it support now (ie.8bit,c64 appleII) > 3. Just how fast is it now? > 4. How easy is it to get the .SD files over now? > 5. Where do I get a copy of the latest version? Troy (or whatever), 1. The current version of ST Xformer II is 2.55. Version 2.6 will be released as soon as the Atari STE is released, so that I can add 16 grey level support and take advantage of the better sound and scrolling, but who knows when that will be. Sam Tramiel promised that the STE would ship in October, so I guess his word isn't worth spit. 2. 130XE only. Apple II and C-64 emulation were dropped so that I don't get sued by Apple and Commiedore. 3. 50% the speed of a 130XE, the best that can be done with a software only 6502 interpreter. If you have Jim Allen's T16 board (the only accelerator board worth anything) it will run at up to 80% the speed of a 130XE. 4. Very easy. You don't even have to use .SD files. Just copy files directly from the 8-bit disk to the ST disk using DOS 2.5's Copy command. 5. The software is public domain, so you can download it from places like Compuserve or GEnie. Or you can get the disk and manual from me for $20. Or you can buy it from some Atari dealers, but be warned that all they do is download the stuff from Compuserve or GEnie and sell it to you at outrageous prices. I have nothing to do with that. Also be warned that I have nothing to do with the manufacture or sale of Xformer Cables. I placed the plans for those cables into the public domain a year ago, and now some dealers are making their own cables and selling them. I personally have come across a lot of bad cables. Pins are shorted together and other goodies. So don't complain to me if you fry your ST. With the Xformer Cable, you can run such disks as Atariwriter Plus, B/Graph, Action and BASIC XL runtime packages, MAC/65, SpartaDOS, and even Choplifter and Lode Runner, although a bit slowly. - Darek || Branch Always Software || Darek Mihocka || Quick ST/Index $19.95 || || PO Box 2624, Station B || (519)-747-0386 || Quick Utilities $29.95 || || Kitchener, Ont N2H 6N2 || CIS: 73657,2714 BIX, GEnie, Delphi: DAREKM || || Canada (519)-570-4340 || Quick Utilities on every desk in every home || ------------------------------ End of INFO-ATARI16 Digest V89 Issue #760 *****************************************